Crime and Scumbags in Ireland

[paddybarry]

im probably going to get slated for this but anyway here it goes. i feel that our cuurent socital woes are directly related to celtic tiger ireland and serious loss of traditional values. they was always a problem with welfare services in this country which seem to encourage teenage pregnancy in working class backgrounds. we now have a situation with more and more women from more affluent backgrounds are having kids but are chosen to stay in work leaving child rearing to creches/schools and the like.

kids need discipline and guidance and if parents are not there to parent and provide discipline to kids then net result is society which we face today. as a teacher in an affluent male school in south dublin it galls me to see the utter disrespect these kids show female teachers, cleaners, caretakers and the like. they causually litter classrooms, grounds etc obvious to bins.

[fran]

paddybarry said:

im probably going to get slated for this but anyway here it goes. i feel that our cuurent socital woes are directly related to celtic tiger ireland and serious loss of traditional values. they was always a problem with welfare services in this country which seem to encourage teenage pregnancy in working class backgrounds. we now have a situation with more and more women from more affluent backgrounds are having kids but are chosen to stay in work leaving child rearing to creches/schools and the like.

kids need discipline and guidance and if parents are not there to parent and provide discipline to kids then net result is society which we face today. as a teacher in an affluent male school in south dublin it galls me to see the utter disrespect these kids show female teachers, cleaners, caretakers and the like. they causually litter classrooms, grounds etc obvious to bins.

That's a fair point paddy. I'm a firm believer of discipline and having respect for your fellow peers and especially elders. Kids these days do not have "the fear", that I and a lot of my generation had, of a good belt of an ash plant or a sally switch to keep you in tow. I'm not advocating corporal punishment but I was always aware of what might happen if I overstepped the line.

[artfoley]

davidtrimble said:

I see the second Polish lad who was stabbed died last night, what action can be taken to save the country?

off the top of my head

1. stringent tariffs for any violent/ anti social behaviour
2. get rid of drugs and background as mitigating circumstances except in the case of drugs where a sentence may be reduced in the event of the guilty party offering up a significant supplier
3. if you bring a weapon into a fight it demonstrates mens rea and therefore the charge of murder sticks instead of manslaughter
4. no remission in sentences
5. prisons to become places of punishment i.e hard labour and uncomfortable for those serving on indictable offences
6. reducing the age of crimial responsibility to 16
7. 3 strikes and you're out
8. the accused must take the stand in all trials where the minimum sentence is is greater than 5 years
9. drug tests for people on the dole
10. rigourous enforcement of S62 of the 1966 housing Act i.e if you act like a knacker doing drugs or anti social behaviour the corpo can fcuk you out on the street
11. referendum on sentencing i.e let the people decide what the sentences for drug dealing, murder, rape etc are
12 bring back fear on the part of the scum ofthe gardai
13 introduce the verdict of not proven

[HOD]

I think you are wrong there about Celtic Tiger being a factor.

Dubling had worse levels of scum in the 80's, Joyriding was a nightly occurance,massive Heroin probles, Ramming of Garda Cars.

Southill in Limerick in the 80's was as rough as it today.

paddybarry said:

im probably going to get slated for this but anyway here it goes. i feel that our cuurent socital woes are directly related to celtic tiger ireland and serious loss of traditional values. they was always a problem with welfare services in this country which seem to encourage teenage pregnancy in working class backgrounds. we now have a situation with more and more women from more affluent backgrounds are having kids but are chosen to stay in work leaving child rearing to creches/schools and the like.

kids need discipline and guidance and if parents are not there to parent and provide discipline to kids then net result is society which we face today. as a teacher in an affluent male school in south dublin it galls me to see the utter disrespect these kids show female teachers, cleaners, caretakers and the like. they causually litter classrooms, grounds etc obvious to bins.

[azoffaly]

I agree with quite a lot of that art.

1. stringent tariffs for any violent/ anti social behaviour

Yes. Including mandatory jail for violent crime.

2. get rid of drugs and background as mitigating circumstances except in the case of drugs where a sentence may be reduced in the event of the guilty party offering up a significant supplier

Partially in agreement. Would also 'defer' sentence in some cases if the offender went 'dry' and stayed dry for the length the sentence would have been. (Reports to Gardai).

3. if you bring a weapon into a fight it demonstrates mens rea and therefore the charge of murder sticks instead of manslaughter

Agree. We have to get rid of the culture of carrying weapons to 'defend yourself' sic.

4. no remission in sentences

Agree.

5. prisons to become places of punishment i.e hard labour and uncomfortable for those serving on indictable offences

Agree. I debated this elsewhere, and my slogan was ''Prison should be about doing time, not passing time

6. reducing the age of crimial responsibility to 16

Agree, especially for ASBOs

7. 3 strikes and you're out

I don't agree with this. I think if you make the individual sentences harsh enough, you don't have to implement this rule. I suppose it's moot, because in my world, no-one would be offending 3 times, because they'd be in jail for about 10 years each time anyway.

8. the accused must take the stand in all trials where the minimum sentence is is greater than 5 years

To serve what purpose? The key word is accused here, and we have to be careful. Some people can't speak well in public, or might have the wrong sort of 'accent', which could be a factor in how the jury perceives them.

9. drug tests for people on the dole

Not sure about this either. It smacks a little Orwellian. How about drugs tests for convicted criminals who have been released? Being on the dole is not a crime.

10. rigourous enforcement of S62 of the 1966 housing Act i.e if you act like a knacker doing drugs or anti social behaviour the corpo can fcuk you out on the street

Ideally yes, at least this would stop ghettos building up, but where would they go? Either they'd end up squatting or slumming somewhere, or setting up caravan sites. I do think there should be a 'fit and proper person' criterium for holding a council house though.

11. referendum on sentencing i.e let the people decide what the sentences for drug dealing, murder, rape etc are

This implies mandatory sentencing. I'd be more in favour of 'minimum' mandatory sentences. Very hard to decide that in a referendum, referenda tend to be Yes/No questions. The Justice department should draw up a list of ranges, and very very severe in terms of what is proposed. i..e Murder = Automatic Life sentence. Life means life. Rape = Automatic 20 year sentence, up to a maximum of Life, down to possession of drugs = 6 months minimum. 25 years maximum. Something like that.

12 bring back fear on the part of the scum ofthe gardai

All of the above would do that I think. It would at least introduce fear of being caught. At times I would love to see the gardai baton the fcuk out of them, a lá Lansdowne Road hooligans, but you can't 'legislate' for that. I'd love to see the bill though

13 introduce the verdict of not proven

Not sure of what this means. I'm assuming it's not 'not guilty' and would therefore maybe allow the person to be tried again? Would it not be a bit of a cop out for the jury?

Anyway, good suggestions I think. And maybe add another one.

No
a)hoodie tracksuits,
b)baseball caps or
c)bumfluff moustaches

unless
a) You are over 8 stone weight and exercise
b) Can name 5 teams in the American League
c) Ever.

[azoffaly]

hud said:

I think you are wrong there about Celtic Tiger being a factor.

Dubling had worse levels of scum in the 80's, Joyriding was a nightly occurance,massive Heroin probles, Ramming of Garda Cars.

Southill in Limerick in the 80's was as rough as it today.

paddybarry said:

im probably going to get slated for this but anyway here it goes. i feel that our cuurent socital woes are directly related to celtic tiger ireland and serious loss of traditional values. they was always a problem with welfare services in this country which seem to encourage teenage pregnancy in working class backgrounds. we now have a situation with more and more women from more affluent backgrounds are having kids but are chosen to stay in work leaving child rearing to creches/schools and the like.

kids need discipline and guidance and if parents are not there to parent and provide discipline to kids then net result is society which we face today. as a teacher in an affluent male school in south dublin it galls me to see the utter disrespect these kids show female teachers, cleaners, caretakers and the like. they causually litter classrooms, grounds etc obvious to bins.

I think the Celtic tiger is to blame for some of the new middle class brats. Kids from good families, but who are used to getting what they want, and now.

[twiceasnice97]

the yanks have been hanging and flogging them for decades and it simply doesn`t work.

if you pass the kids of a single mother through the irsh welfar and education sytems what you end up with are poor, undernourished illiterate unemployable kids whose only role models to get out of their disgusting flat compleses are robbie keane or the local tracksuit and chunky jewelry wearing knacker who has piles of cash to hand out from the window of his jeep.

if the lad can`t kick a ball straight wheres he going to go.

the sheer stupidity of the usual sunday world solutions seem to pass straight over the heads of a lot of you goons.

if you take the little baxtards that commit say the crime of assault or armed robbery and lock them away for twenty years with nothing but a slop bucket and a syringe for company what do you think you will get at the end of it?

a model forty something citizen who will have changed his view towards the country that he lives in or a 40 something ready to cuase mayhem

grow up you bloody idiots. it doesn`t work. the only way to cut crime statistics is to have a robust garda prescence on foot patrol; backed by specialist squads.
a streamlined courts system with credible sentences which involve both community service and jailing.
an education system within jails
an abscence of politicians on the make
strong intervention in disadvantaged areas for preschoolers and primary school children
and almost as important a culture of locking up those from the most priviledged in society who abuse that priviledge by committing white collar crime.

all pie in the sky because it is not a vote winner where bate them with a shtick is.

[azoffaly]

It has to be a balance between deterrant and rehabilitation. By all means let them get qualifications etc inside, but you must have meaningful sentences. Some people don't want to be rehabilitated. It's easier to rob someone, than earn money. And if you don't care about the consequences, there's not much to persuade you to change path.

Having said that, if there is a wish to straighten up, then it is incumbent on the State to provide the mechanism. I agree with you there.

What do you mean by this?

strong intervention in disadvantaged areas for preschoolers and primary school children

It sounds like some generic fluffy idea that you hear ultra liberals spouting all the time. What exactly does strong intervention entail? Moving children out of disadvantaged areas? Building new schools? Not having a go, just curious. It sounds noble, but very vague.

[The Brewery Horse]

Could widespread curfews be part of a solution to the younger scumbag problem?
Say all under 18s indoors by half ten.

[Nice Ham]

Why did my post get deleted from here?

[George T Richardson III]

Send the army into these hell holes move the scum to some new form of concentration camp/prison village. Then let them ravage each other like animals to their hearts content.

[Nice Ham]

I never actually posted in this thread.

[windyridge]

Jesus H, what the f**k are people on about? You would swear that we have been reduced to a society of disorganised chaos from reading this. Death to scumbags, lock them up for life. Get a grip, from the posts on here, we should execute anyone who commits a crime. How does breaking into a house and holding people hostage warrant death?
Muck.

[artfoley]

azoffaly said:

I agree with quite a lot of that art.

AZ
thanks for the response

in relation to the points you raised:

having the accused take the stand, in many murders/rapes etc the accused is the only witness to the fact and they should be able to give a credible account of themselves, the people of ireland are also entitled to a fair trial as well !!

the not proven verdict: is in effect in scotland, rather than letting someone who is guilty leaving the court without a stain on their good character

[George T Richardson III]

windyridge said:

Jesus H, what the f**k are people on about? You would swear that we have been reduced to a society of disorganised chaos from reading this. Death to scumbags, lock them up for life. Get a grip, from the posts on here, we should execute anyone who commits a crime. How does breaking into a house and holding people hostage warrant death?
Muck.

Warrants death Windy because these guys will just continue to re-commit their scum hate filled crimes once they get released from prison. They'll come out jail, rob someone else and waste more tax payers money having them tracked down, put to trial and housed in prison once again. This cycle will continue for the rest of their scum lives. Whats the point. Just kill them now and save us all the bother. As an alternative, I would strongly suggest the concentration camp option.